Steptoe and Son Forum

Ilovesteptoe wrote:They say imitation is a form of flattery. Others call it plagiarism.

These days, filmmakers prefer terms like "homage", that is when they admit it .
In “Oh, What A Beautiful Mourning” (1972)...Albert says, ‘We can’t go to a funeral in a racing car!’ Obviously, Harold wasn’t being serious. In Peter Jackson’s zombie classic “Brain Dead” (1992)...lecherous Uncle Les actually drives a racing car to a funeral, with wire wheels n’ all. The only thing that changed was the colour. Coincidence?

Dirty Old Yank wrote:

Ilovesteptoe wrote:They say imitation is a form of flattery. Others call it plagiarism.

These days, filmmakers prefer terms like "homage", that is when they admit it .
In “Oh, What A Beautiful Mourning” (1972)...Albert says, ‘We can’t go to a funeral in a racing car!’ Obviously, Harold wasn’t being serious. In Peter Jackson’s zombie classic “Brain Dead” (1992)...lecherous Uncle Les actually drives a racing car to a funeral, with wire wheels n’ all. The only thing that changed was the colour. Coincidence?

Coincidence, unconsciously done out of fandom, or deliberate? Some borrow most steal. How many director's use famous scenes from classic movies, for example, the classic Nosferatu with Max Schreck (1913) scene in which show him rising from the coffin, or his look itself used in many a vampire flick. For example Salem's lot's Master's looked very much like Schreck's Nosferatu.

Ilovesteptoe wrote:Coincidence, unconsciously done out of fandom, or deliberate? Some borrow most steal. How many director's use famous scenes from classic movies, for example, the classic Nosferatu with Max Schreck (1913) scene in which show him rising from the coffin, or his look itself used in many a vampire flick. For example Salem's lot's Master's looked very much like Schreck's Nosferatu.

Was wondering where you got to ILS .
German expressionist cinema like the original silent classics “Nosferatu” and “The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari” are bound to be influential, that’s a given because they’re both public domain. Consequently the Count rises from his coffin exactly as Max Shreck did, in Coppola’s questionable (some say hilarious) version of Dracula, as does John Forbes-Robertson in “Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires.” I’ll wager Werner Herzog had Klaus Kinski do the same thing, but I haven’t seen that version. And if we expand the subject beyond Steptoe, the list is fairly endless. Speaking of expressionist cinema, have you seen Fritz Lang’s “M” (1931) and “The Testament of Dr. Mabuse” (1933)? Masterpieces both!! Chances are you have already, but maybe somebody else will discover them. And coincidentally, beeb recently reported that “Nosferatu” director F. W. Murnau’s skull was stolen, though they’ve yet to provide any evidence to support that claim .

Dirty Old Yank wrote:

Ilovesteptoe wrote:Coincidence, unconsciously done out of fandom, or deliberate? Some borrow most steal. How many director's use famous scenes from classic movies, for example, the classic Nosferatu with Max Schreck (1913) scene in which show him rising from the coffin, or his look itself used in many a vampire flick. For example Salem's lot's Master's looked very much like Schreck's Nosferatu.

Was wondering where you got to ILS .
German expressionist cinema like the original silent classics “Nosferatu” and “The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari” are bound to be influential, that’s a given because they’re both public domain. Consequently the Count rises from his coffin exactly as Max Shreck did, in Coppola’s questionable (some say hilarious) version of Dracula, as does John Forbes-Robertson in “Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires.” I’ll wager Werner Herzog had Klaus Kinski do the same thing, but I haven’t seen that version. And if we expand the subject beyond Steptoe, the list is fairly endless. Speaking of expressionist cinema, have you seen Fritz Lang’s “M” (1931) and “The Testament of Dr. Mabuse” (1933)? Masterpieces both!! Chances are you have already, but maybe somebody else will discover them. And coincidentally, beeb recently reported that “Nosferatu” director F. W. Murnau’s skull was stolen, though they’ve yet to provide any evidence to support that claim .

"M" has got to be Peter Lorre's best work. I saw it for the first time about a year ago on the public access channel here. Unfortunately, the public access channel is not listed in the TV guide so you never know what the film will be ahead of time. You have to tune in and take your chances. There were several serial murders in Germany at about that time and the script supposedly amalgamated elements of all the stories into one, so in a sense you could say Lang "borrowed" heavily from reality.

Ivor Biggun wrote:"M" has got to be Peter Lorre's best work.

You may be right Ivor, a deeply disturbing film, Lorre's performance in “M” remains iconic to this day. A remarkably versatile actor really, I don’t know if he resented being so indelibly associated with the more sinister characters he portrayed, Hands of Orlac and all that. What many people don’t realize is Lorre was an incredibly funny fellow too! I’ve mentioned this before but back on topic, in “The Raven” (1963) Lorre challenges Boris Karloff to a magicians duel. Karloff, the more powerful (and sober) causes Lorre’s magic wand to go limp. And Lorre, who has had a few too many, says, “.....Oh, you dirty old man!” .

“Men of Property” (1970) opens with Harold and Albert playing Monopoly.
Porridge episode “Pardon Me” (1977) opens with Fletch and Blanco playing Monopoly with remarkable similarity.
Even the staging is virtually identical. Coincidence? erm.....possible, but unlikely.

Good lord, this subject certainly hit a nerve, the debate rages on 8 years after I started the thread to try and vent my frustration as a Steptoe fan after suffering years of OFAH worship without Steptoe receiving little or no credit.

Its great to be back

The "Here's Johnny!" scene from The Shining?

DOY wrote:

That would be “And So To Bed”, an episode that preceded The Shining by 6 years.
Those scenes are virtually identical so the question is, did Kubrick nick that imagery off Steptoe?
Consciously or unconsciously, chances are he did.

taylorslade wrote:

Ivor Biggun wrote:I don't see the connection that the OP tried to make comparing Del Boy to Frankie Barrow. Frankie Barrow was a mobster who used his muscle men to get people to give up their money by fair means or foul, Del Boy was just a guy trying to get by on his wits and the gullibility of others to get them to fall into his schemes or buy whatever he was selling. I can make a better comparison of Del Boy to the sons of the Boswell family from Bread who also relied on their wits and frequently crazy schemes to bring in enough money for their mum to keep the household going. Their schemes frequently fell apart before the big payoff could be collected or ultimately ended up costing them more than they made just like with many of Del Boys' schemes.

.

The main point that I was illustrating, was that the Frankie Barrow character would often use the same kind of incorrect French phrases and ones that he would make up. Fair enough, few ideas are 100% original, but this was a character trait which Del Boy would become well known for, and it's one of the things which people always praise John Sullivan for coming up with, and like many of the glaring similarities between the two shows, it can't be a coincidence, especially when looking at other examples.

I never said that Del was a villain like Barrow and my comparison between the two had nothing to do with that.

Hear, here Ivor Biggun! Well said.

Frankie Barrow was only seen twice, and the only similarity he has with Derrick Trotter is the brown camel hair coat he wears at the beginning of Seven Steptoerai. Yes he uses long french words but he unlike Del knows what they mean!

By the way Ivor I like your songs!

In 1963, “Wallah Wallah Catsmeat” begins with Albert dropping fag ash in Harold’s corn flakes.
10 years later, in “Carry On Girls” Patsy Rowlands drops fag ash in Kenneth Connor’s cuppa.
And in the 1980’s, not just ash but dogends found in food was a recurring theme in “Married With Children.”
Apparently it’s a universal experience, finding a soggy cigarette butt in your mouth because some (expletive omitted) buffoon extinguished their fag in your drink, is a disgusting rite of passage, one you never forget.
But I’ll wager Steptoe was the sitcom that got there first .

Also, in “Tea For Two” (1970) Harold draws a funny mustache and glasses on the picture of Tory candidate that Albert has plastered all over the front gate. Five year later, in Rising Damp episode “Stand Up and be Counted”, Rigsby’s lodgers do the same thing, only instead of glasses they give Rigsby’s candidate devil horns .
Once again, that’s a universal experience, the creative urge to alter a photograph in some funny way.
But it wouldn’t be the first example of where Steptoe almost certainly influenced Rising Damp .

A key theme of “porn Yesterday” (1974) was Albert’s appearance in a what-the-butler-saw classic, “Milk a Lady” where he played a milkman delivering a crate of milk with no trousers on. In Kevin Smith’s comedy “Zack and Miri Make a Porno” (2008), that scenario is duplicated exactly, a bloke with a crate of milk and he's got no trousers on.
In “Oh, What a Beautiful Mourning” (1972), an uncle passes on and the wake/share out becomes a mad free for all. In an 1991 episode of “Married With Children” that scenario was also identically duplicated incuding the uncle.
In “The Bath” (1963) Albert slept under the stairs, as did Harry Potter in 2001.
Even more coincidences? Hmm.....highly unlikely.

I love how this thread goes on and on and on and on .....

I mean it, how much Steptoe is out there ? Ray and Alan must have missed a fortune in copyright !!!

bob wrote:I love how this thread goes on and on and on and on .....
I mean it, how much Steptoe is out there ? Ray and Alan must have missed a fortune in copyright !!!

And here’s a few more ...
In “The Piano” (1962) a tower block toff insists Harold and Albert don’t touch his precious wallpaper and that they remove their shoes before entering his flat. 30 years later that scenario was duplicated exactly in a 1992 episode of “Keeping Up Appearances” where Hyacinth insists a telly repairman does the same...don’t touch the wallpaper and remove your shoes. Hyacinth (Steptoe veteran Patricia Routledge) was of course far more neurotic and didn’t provide kinky carpet slippers .
In “The Bird” (1962) Harold tries to shave but risks cutting his throat when Albert shouts at him. That too was duplicated in another 1992 Keeping Up Appearances episode, even staging and camera angles were identical.
Added to which the marked similarities between Harold and Hyacinth; both awkwardly sought to improve their lot without knowing how. The obvious difference being Steptoe uniquely and admirably encourages empathy with the impoverished... and dirty old men, 30 seconds worth of red-hot porn and they change the currency, I knew no good would come of it!

Lets face it this thread has gone on long enough!

Yes Messirs Galton & Simpson were wonderful writers and the Sun shone out of their 'Arrises, as the say.

So everyone has copied their works for their own game.

Not so, my favourite episode is The Desperate Hours.

I have just this evening found out that it is a comic re-working of a Humphrey Bogart film from 1955,
so a clear 7 whole years before Steptoe and Son came along!

Uncle Nobby wrote:Lets face it this thread has gone on long enough!
Yes Messirs Galton & Simpson were wonderful writers and the Sun shone out of their 'Arrises, as the say.
So everyone has copied their works for their own game. Not so, my favourite episode is The Desperate Hours.
I have just this evening found out that it is a comic re-working of a Humphrey Bogart film from 1955, so a clear
7 whole years before Steptoe and Son came along!

Hi Nobby, good to see you posting again but if you’ve only just now discovered that Ray & Alan very cleverly
re-worked a movie starring Humphrey Bogart, then prepare yourself for a shock...
“A Star Is Born” was a 1954 movie starring Judy Garland.
“Live Now Pay Later” (i.e. P.A.Y.E.) was a 1962 British film starring Ian Hendry.
“Love Story” (i.e. Loathe) was a mediocre but internationally popular 1970 Yank movie.
“Upstairs Downstairs” was a 1959 British film.
“Seance On A Wet Afternoon” (i.e. Rag and Bone Yard) was a 1964 film starring Sir Richard Attenborough.
“Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines” (i.e. Heating Machines) was an internationally popular 1965 movie starring Robert Morley and Terry-Thomas.
Steptoe episode “T.B. or Not T.B.” was obviously inspired by Shakespeare’s Hamlet.
And the comparatively short list goes on from there.
If you didn’t realize that till now we all envy the laughs you’ve yet to discover .
Admirably, Ray and Alan never treated audiences with condescension and while their brilliant, to this day unparalleled comedy scripts sometimes referred to easily recognized pop culture, movies and/or classic literature,
...Ray and Alan were never thieves or plagiarists. And therein lies the distinction, one of many.

Uncle Nobby wrote:Yes Messirs Galton & Simpson were wonderful writers and the Sun shone out of their 'Arrises, as the say.

We’re reminded of what British comedy historian Robert Ross wrote when Alan recently passed on (paraphrasing)...
“It’s no secret that...the work of Ray Galton and Alan Simpson remains the benchmark for excellence in comedy writing...(and) for excellence in comedy writing for television. Period. Alan and Ray were quite simply the guv’nors. They always will be.” Agreed! Have you read Front Legs of the Cow?
Susannah's book has been in paperback for years already.
Time not wasted, essential reading .